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Full transcript:
Jared Fuller 0:00
In today's episode is a session from the 2023 partner kickoff event. A huge thank you to partner stack for partnering with us on this kickoff event. And if you want to check out more sessions, there will be a link below. Let's hop right in. This is going to be about a CRO, which is represented by my buddy Matt Cameron. He's trained Matt, how many salespeople do you think you've trained?
Matt Cameron 0:35
I don't know, a lot. And more importantly, perhaps the managers who went on to train them,
Jared Fuller 0:39
right. So Matt specializes in training managers that trains the rest of the sales org, and I went through Matt's boot camps and courses, absolutely loved them transformed my career in life. So I've learned a lot from Matt. He's representing the CRO persona today. And also JUSTIN GRAY. Justin, you've been on the success side of the partner vendor relationship for years and years, and you've literally overseen 1000s of service delivered and software implementations. So Justin, you'll be representing our chief customer officer. Thanks so much, Justin for comment. Sounds great, awesome. And then we got Blake Williams here who's sitting at the intersect of all things partner and marketing. So representing our CMO persona of the day, and the way that I wanted to kick off this panel, fellas. And I'll be kind of Moonlighting, if you will, as the either skeptical executive or partner build executive kind of going back and forth between both of those, you know, tangentially representing the partner persona, where I wanted to kind of start things off with is not where if everything's great and working well, but for the partner ecosystem professionals that are here today. What might be the one thing that standing in the way of starting that relationship, like maybe building some empathy for the other persona? So Matt, let's start with you as a sales leader, and the CEO started to say, hey, we need to figure out this partnerships thing. Partnership person hears that and goes, Hey, Matt, I see you said, let's figure out this partner thing. And you're immediately like, Oh, God, another thing I have to do. Right, another thing I have to figure out? What's going to be the thing that most stands in the way or some advice on like what not to do? Let's start maybe there.
Matt Cameron 2:14
I'll start with some context. First, I think that it it depends on the nature of the partnerships. And the reason why you're looking to establish partnerships, right, be it product gap, technical relationships, service delivery capability, post sales support, or a revenue partnership. So I'm going to answer that question from the perspective of a more of a cosell or some sort of revenue partnership, where the partners because I've seen this so many times, mainly mid market enterprise, where the partners have the capability to sell and service their own deals. The biggest issue is figuring out how to carve up the pie so that you don't have channel conflict. And so the most obvious one, of course, is thinking about to whom each party can sell, and there will inevitably be overlap. And sometimes it's intentional. And the number one mistake I make I see is comp mis alignment. So we want to make sure that a direct sales organization is absolutely agnostic as to whether they source and close a deal themselves, or they work with a partner organization to get it done. And if you don't sort that out in the cold, then the behavior will follow. So
Jared Fuller 3:25
following on that, then I'll toss it to the other folks is the assumption that partners are ready to sell and service. I think for most SaaS companies. That's not the case. Right? It's it has to be a cosell. And it has to be a co delivery because of let's say, the startup phase, right? A few 100 employees or even 1000. If the assumption from the sales leaders past, right, they've been in a position where they've been in a channel organization where partners are capable. But now that we're in a new situation where partners really aren't capable, how do we get them from like, hey, you've you've experienced Channel Sales at Salesforce, or Adobe, or some big it channel infrastructure thing, but now we're in SAS, these partners aren't capable of selling by themselves or servicing by themselves?
Matt Cameron 4:08
Well, I don't think it's even as simple as that. Some of them are, some of them aren't. So I think, you know, first principles, again, I think we tend to be too broad brushed with this stuff. Like it's so nuanced, you know, you set up a stand up a general program, you're gonna have some established partners who can do it. All right, the man out there with other service offerings, and they're adding you to the mix. And to your very valid point, that the other smaller organizations who are actually, you know, partnering with you, maybe you're the first vendor organizations are partnering with. So I think you've got to accommodate both. And you need to think about both contexts and decide where you're going to go. And some organizations are going to say we can only work with a company that's full service, you know, from from sourcing to delivery, others will say no, we just want a cosell motion and we're going to look out for the customers and price but there's a lot to it. I don't think you can give one answer to it. Jared. I think I think that just because we're in SAS, I think there's a spectrum. Right. So what do you what do you I'd love to know, am I allowing them to
Jared Fuller 4:59
come through say also success then back to marketing. Totally. Justin, from your perspective, if you're sitting in the VP of CES or chief customer officer position, and you hear the CEO say, hey, guys figure out this partnering thing, like we're cutting everywhere. So maybe we can save some costs. What is something that a partner person needs to know about coming in approaching their CCO with that sentiment, but not necessarily that buy in?
Justin Gray 5:24
Yeah, I think there's two really predominant pillars. The first and foremost is incentive, right. So I think a lot of CS teams or success teams have a perverse incentive internally to funnel oftentimes to an internal consulting division or, you know, an internal staff that actually competes with the focus of a lot of those partners, whether it be from an integration standpoint, or from a success standpoint. So that's an area that has to be well thought out and oftentimes overcome. The other aspect, I would say is actually can reside more on the partner, but still a main challenge. And that's education. So how do we fully understand how our partner ecosystem comes together? What the benefits of each partnership type or partner and what do they bring, and the reason why I say that oftentimes falls on the partner or, or as a shortcoming and partner is because everyone wants to get on call and say, We can do everything, you know, and those those folks are hearing that exact same narrative from every partner that that hopped into one of those Lunch and Learns are educational sessions. And although you might have a wide array of services, servicing multiple verticals and a ICPs, you've got to narrow that down, it's got to be pain point based use case based, and hopefully aligned to the things that that those folks are hearing, from a day to day basis. Like I often say, like CS teams hear all of the pain from the client and often can't solve any of it. You know, they're looking for how do I better use this platform, or I need, you know, help extending a solution. And it's not their job to provide those services. So it really is their job to be a conduit into, you know, those different solution sets, and we've got to arm them to do that effectively. Alright, Blake, let's
Jared Fuller 7:15
get over. Let's click kick it over to you kind of like, it seems like alignment with the organization's comps and metrics is seems top of mind for the sales and success side, I have a feeling to some degree that it might not be the same on the marketing side, because it's like you talking about partner marketing driving demand for partners with partners, you talking about CO marketing? Like, how do we approach the CMO where the CEO said, Hey, let's figure out this partner thing? What's going to be what's what are the things that the CMO is worried about to start thinking? From that partner personas point of view?
Blake Williams 7:48
Give me two shots of that question. The first one is like, the very beginning part first thing CEO is why, right? Where are we feeling pain in our flywheel that needs to be addressed? Or that you think partnerships can address right? Because without pain, people are going to abandon what it really takes, which is commitment, discipline and consistency to launch that, that entire partnership program and get it off the ground.
Jared Fuller 8:12
Okay, so let's pause here then. So maybe we're coming to something because each of you said something here, the CEO said, Hey, let's figure out this partner thing. That's not enough to come from the CEO. Like if the partner person you're like, hey, I one CEO, saying let's figure out this partner thing. Now, let's really codify the why across each of these departments. Right,
Blake Williams 8:29
right. And if that is presenting itself inside of its flywheel as the largest point of friction, then you immediately have another executive leader who is now mutually interested in seeing this thing also be successful so that they can come off of the bottom as the lowest, you know, the lowest value add. But to that, to Matt's point, right, Justin, you're talking about that's paint storming. I'll take that from Rob sail that I was speaking with earlier today. I wish I could say that, but find out, find out every leaders individual pain, and then find out their opportunity. So what if I fix that pain? what's that equal? Right for You? Right? And so now you can rank stack rank these things. And once you have a stack rank, we can do what Matt said and say, Okay, where do these incentives need to lie so that we can start to shift behavior so that we are start to all rowing in the same direction towards fixing this long term strategy? Right and doing the everyday behaviors that will lead to the outcomes that the business needs to start spinning faster.
Matt Cameron 9:27
Can I talk to him for a second? I want to leave because I think between Blake and justice reentering point here, again, looking at it from the service and delivery side of it rather than the revenue side of it. One of the things that we haven't mentioned I think is worth pointing out is that I've seen too many situations where we've been too quickly to sign on partners and to your point about them being able to do everything who ends up fixing bad implementations. We do the vendor does right so it doesn't matter who had their brand on the front of it right. If a partner screws up and implantation in Justin's group, will the CS group needs to fix it in So as we're thinking about this, I think it's really, really important that we have a very strong and rigorous partner certification program as part of one of the things you absolutely have to do when you get going. And an example of that is that you never do your first few implementations alone, you always have expert services from outside to make sure Yep, this is gonna be okay. Last thing we need is brand equity, dilution and churn through bad implementations from partners.
Blake Williams 10:25
Right? And if I can pick it up from there, I'll give you the CMO answers like, hey, I'm interested in delivering partner influence revenue or marketing influence revenue and marketing source revenue. At the end of the day, I'm making sure that our brand is protected. Right, and that we are building and living in market with with our communities, with our customers. Again, paint storm gains storm, how partner, are you going to help me meet those goals? Right. And insofar as you can show me the light, what I would recommend any partner leader out there is that when you're trying to bring a partnership that you think should be co marketed and CO sold with or integrated with, that you find out what their demand gen statistics look like, what's their lead opportunity, close rate, I mean, come in with some real pipeline funnel metrics to say, hey, Mo, you need to pay attention to this, because they, here we are, they're gonna give us lift, right. And so both of us marketing together, now make more than what we already have on our own. Right. And so that dollar goes significantly further. And that's a good way to get somebody's attention, because you just made my life easier.
Justin Gray 11:29
So I think one key theme to accomplishing all of those aspects that we just talked about is, you know, partner alignment much earlier than most organizations are thinking about that alignment today. Because quite frankly, like Matt said, something like who fixes a failed implementation? Well, who gets the implementation to start off with, it's normally the partner that source that deal. Right, we all be pretty upset if if someone else is taking our deal, but that's often the first real time that that partner is being evaluated. All right, now they gave us something, you know, that we want, which is source revenue, right. And, naturally, they're gonna want to do the implementation, but everyone's trying to figure that out within the context of that deal. And that client like that needs to be aligned on much earlier in that process, goes to co marketing goes to co selling, and then obviously, implementation and support down the road. So often that that partner alignment, or the relationship with the partners is predicated on who's going to give me a logo. And that, frankly, I think just exacerbates all the natural issues that come up with in a partnership
Jared Fuller 12:33
100%. I want to go a little bit deeper into the roles that each of you would have in this theoretical world. This is all that you're focused on. I know, each of you are multidisciplinary. Now. Let's start with as we start with Matt, let's kick it backwards from Blake. Blake, what are some things kind of expanding on your point, like understand your other departments metrics? I have the seven please to the ecosystem in 2023. And my final one was department professionals. And I said, my plea to you is to help marketing, do marketing together help selling do selling together help the services team do servicing together? Yeah. So what might someone that's in a partner position not understand about the day in the life, the metrics, the demands, the stress of being a CMO? How do they better empathize and understand that business to come alongside and help them hit their numbers by virtue of marketing together?
Blake Williams 13:27
Right, it's a you know, it's, you know, if we're being honest, marketing is only really one rung above partnerships on its way to the island, right. And then somewhere, sales is on the front end of that ladder, in terms of being funded, and being able to dictate what happens in terms of growth, I would say, across a majority of companies. That's kind of how it is. So in a way, what they need to understand is that marketing does have some budget allocation capability. But at the end of the day, they're subject to a CRO. And at the other end of the subject, they have their dotted line, you can say they're not. But if that EVP of sales has an issue, the CMO is going to have a short shelf life, right? Especially if it comes down the pipeline. So at the end of the day, all the demand and engagement that you can create is fantastic. Unless it's actually translating to dollars and finding out maybe the top three things that lead in that funnel or in that flywheel or whatever they're in that pipeline that lead to those sales qualified opportunities the most, from a marketing perspective will be key for you to pull out.
Jared Fuller 14:35
The biggest problem I've seen when starting these conversations is that I've encountered marketing people for the first time when I'm like, Hey, let's do marketing together. You have this extreme like maybe a Dave Gerhardt who I did stuff with Dave didn't care Dave was just like screw the spreadsheets like throw it in our reo. Like he could care less about ROI. But then you get the more tactical demand gen marketers and they're going wait a second, what's what's partner, you know, pipeline and then what's more cuz I pipeline I'm like, if you ask that question we're already lost, like, can I give you 100% of what you would call partner and just put it in your bucket? Right? That feels like if you're having that debate on, like, what came from partners or what came from marketing, you're only going to lose.
Blake Williams 15:13
Yeah, that's a culture problem, then, at the end of the day, that CEO should be dictating, or at least putting out that, hey, we all win, as long as we all win together, right? As long as everybody's helping each other win, and you're, you're rounding circling the wagons around these growth opportunities. Let's go make some money first, and then we'll figure out how we compensate everybody for it. But until then everybody gets compensated. Right, right, because
Jared Fuller 15:36
there's this push all the partner stuff into the marketing bucket in terms of pipe generation, right? It just, it's there. It's like, alright, don't worry about that. Yes, Justin, let's, let's go to you from the CCOs perspective, what might be something there's, you know, skeptical about or like the wrong way to approach that on the job to be done for the CCO, like the pressures that they're under turns probably right now, you know, at levels that Ned's not necessarily comfortable. The CRO is all of a sudden, the the CRO that didn't necessarily care about the install base is now obsessed over the install base, let's sell into the install base. So you're being pressured to sell more into your thing, you're pressured to, oh, make sure they don't churn. And then now CEO comes to you and says, Hey, let's figure out this partner thing. How can a partner person understand the job that you have better to start that relationship and figure out how partners co deliver?
Justin Gray 16:24
Well, I think, you know, most good partner people are operating, you know, in that, that world, that headspace, at a really granular and all encompassing level, you have to understand the CTO or the successor of a business doesn't have that context. They don't trust those partners, they don't know what they can do. And rightfully, you know, I think most CCOs covet the value the relationship that they have with their customers above all other things. So we're I've seen a lot of, you know, friction and challenges, you know, pressure from the partner team, you know, Hey, we should involve, you know, a, b, and c within, you know, this client use case or, you know, identify this pain point, they can really help us out. But all of that lifecycle hasn't taken place within the successful work at that point, they don't really understand, you know, why so and so adds value, they don't have the relationship there, they don't have the connective tissue within within those teams. And that's something that we have to foster at the very beginning of those conversations, again, across that entire partner landscape. But you have to, really, at a deep level, understand that those individual partners, what they bring to the table form connections there that again, aren't just transactionally focused, we have to do that before we've got that that big problem in front of us or that churn issue arising or whatever it happens to be.
Jared Fuller 17:47
So where would be the best place to start? Then like, how do I broach that conversation? Is that around? Hey, CCO or VP of CES? Like, do I need to be finding, hey, here's this partner that's already working with a joint customer, and ensure that I have some success stories, like here's two partners that have done these things for these customers? How do we inculcate that across other CSMs? Or here's how these partners got proficient in the product, and drove customer value? How do we scale that across our professional services? What is the thing that I should be doing to make sure that I have some trust coming into that conversation with my success leader?
Justin Gray 18:21
Yeah, I think those kinds of use based, you know, case studies understanding of client successes, those are key, and they're kind of table stakes, right. But at the end of the day, like we've got to get these teams helping one another. And I think that's where partners can really kind of step up and bring some value to the table in understanding, you know, what is that low friction or low cost offering, that can immediately solve some of the pains that are happening within that, that CS team, you know, give, I'll give an example. Like, you know, in an environment that I've been super ingrained in for over a decade marketing automation, right, like there's, there's your average CS rep is managing too many clients, they're being asked to run these kind of health check motions, to get an understanding of where clients at from a maturity standpoint, and largely their their purview is is predominantly technical, you know, services partners can come into that and widen that aperture quite a bit. And I think the partners that were successful there, were providing those value add offerings, to form relationships with, you know, the individual ces managers, and even the teams below them, and align those individuals with folks on their team and provide that value up front, here's how I can make a job that you're, you know, resource strapped in order to do easier provide value to the client. And then you know, there's a natural kind of runway that establishes posts that but I always say there's kind of some table stakes things that you just need to do from an alignment standpoint, at that kind of executive level. But the real work happens on the ground level. So if you can provide some value there as a CS leader, if you can open up that opportunity. I think there's there is a huge amount of potential there.
Jared Fuller 19:57
Okay, so Matt, coming back to you let's let's assume We're not talking about the more tactical like comp in alignment, things like, you know, I'd love to be in a position every time where I'm talking with a sales leader about something like partner attach rate and having some clear alignment around partner tax rate I referenced earlier that one of my favorite stories was about a Boston based company named Acquia. And their CRM former CRO and their former CCO both told me, Hey, everything changed whenever the comp plans said 50% partner attach rate or you don't make President's Club, all of a sudden reps were much more willing to you know, do co selling. But beyond that, what's the context that's missing for that partner, Person person who's never been a VP of sales? Or CRO? Like, what is that CRO going through right now, that might make them more willing or less willing to? Okay, how do we figure out this partner thing?
Matt Cameron 20:48
Yeah, so again, I think, in the context of technical and service delivery capability, I think is really, really comes into play. Everyone's going to take free pipeline. Right. So I don't think that's going to be a challenge. What is going to be a challenge from South Dakota is one of the things I'm always concerned about is will you slow down my deals? Yes. Right. Bring a partner and they're gonna slow things down. There's a lot of resistance, especially from reps, right. And so how do we get around that? Well, what we need to do is look at verticals and ICPs, where the a plus one strategy is critical to win, right? We're all competing. I mean, Justin has a marketing automation background, but it can we partner with somebody that has vertical industry expertise, that gives us us plus something else that's going to differentiate us in a way that's going to increase our win rate, and potentially our deal size. The specific example from my background experience would be early days at Salesforce, you know, we were a horizontal platform, well, arguably not even a platform. And we wanted to get into financial services, where there's no way in hell, we could have done it by ourselves and these enterprise reps needed to break into it to get those big deals. And the first deal we did was with Merrill Lynch with a service provider called Oh, Carrie, who had deep vertical industry expertise. And because of that partnership, we want to deal we had no right to win, right against Oracle, and six left, Siebel. So, you know, convinced me that the, the the extension and deal cycle is completely offset by an increase in deal size, and win rate, then we're going to be a in a good situation. So I think it's gone.
Jared Fuller 22:20
I just say you hit the nail right on the head. Like, I think you codified that really clear. There's these three vectors, deal size, win rate, deal velocity. And if there's a trade off on one, there better be a creative component to others, right? It's kind of like, do you want it bass cheaper? Well done. Pick two, right? It's kind of like, look, you're not going to have all three in any best case scenario, CRO. But I think you would take extended deal cycle if you could improve an increase in ASP and a significant improvement and win rate?
Matt Cameron 22:50
Well, what about most of our audience is probably an early stage of growth stage of the company, you go and try and sell to JPMorgan Chase, when you know, you're a series B Company with 30 million in funding very hard. But if Accenture walks you in the door, right, you've got a shot at it. So I think people are pretty short sighted about the value of partners and that respect, they can really take you into the enterprise space. If you do it right, the biggest challenge you're gonna have is how you convince Accenture and the likes of them that you have a meaningful contribution to make to their to their practice, right. And then actually, the argument is the same on the reverse, we're going to give you access to deals that you wouldn't otherwise get into for your main service loans and offerings through leveraging what we have. But
Jared Fuller 23:34
expanding on that a little bit more Matt, and then we can kind of get Blakean. Your, Justin, your opinions on this. What I really liked what you were saying is, look, maybe it's not about boiling the ocean and st partners are the panacea for everything, especially right now. Like, what can we go do. And I think that verticalization I learned so much by going from SMB high velocity SAS startups, to enterprise startups, and then like, co selling with Adobe, all of a sudden, it's like, this is a different ballgame. Like this, this named account manager does not get out of bed for less than a million dollar deal. She could care less about my $50,000 deal, much less my $250,000 deal, she just won't care. Now, if I create a vertical approach to this, however, where Hey, she sells it to financial services, I have these three accounts. And I'm not trying to go deep and make her cosell on all three. I'm just sharing and trying to articulate and then oh, there's a service provider that is also in that financial services. So I think you need to have some sort of verticalization or do some segmentation strategy to really nail with your CRO first. And that also seems like it would have downstream effects into the service line and into the marketing side. It makes everything a little bit more tight. So maybe a more verticalized or segmented approach versus everything is the best way to tackle this.
Matt Cameron 24:49
I think so. But then I love the other guys to dive in here because I'm sure there's some horror stories where the sales side of the organization tears off we start selling these new accounts and then on the back end, the post sales we just don't have the vertical industry. competency. We don't have the glossary of terms to actually service those accounts, right? They go into institutional banking, there's a lot of complexity to that. And then how does the average CS person deliver against that? Right? Because they don't understand the use cases. So we have to be aligned. And then you know, we have to have product marketing, collateral, white papers and all the support that goes around that vertical as well. So we can't just go and add the equivalent of a no carry financial services partnership, right? Without thinking through all of this.
Jared Fuller 25:27
Right. And Blake's just casually dropping in the chats that He's launching a podcast next month. So whatever, Blake, yeah, it's called Green everywhere. I love plugs. So I will be subscribing to that, by the way. So that's not me talking trash.
Blake Williams 25:40
We're like, 15 shows deep, and I'm having you on there. Yes. So you know, one of the things that you did you guys just hit on from a marketing perspective, especially if you're trying to sell again. And if we're thinking about crossbeam, that top left corner of overlapping accounts where there's real opportunity, I call out the in the money opportunities, right? If we're going to look at those, we're going to go through and segment them first by vertical after we get past the NPS. And after we get past the number of relationships in the buyer, the economic buyer group, we're gonna be verticalized, right? Because if we're going to productize, that minimum viable, Better Together story, then it can't be about something that services, everybody. Because when we start that outbound motion, when we start running ads, we have to be super crisp and clear about how we're going to make that customer's life better. But both of these things. So there's a I think that's the key 100%. And to the extent that your list is off, and that your non verticalized, your marketing budget is going to be wasted. Right, you can't be everybody,
Jared Fuller 26:41
unless it's unless maybe events and you can find a category of Angeles thing. But that really does take a lot of market movement. And like, oh, there's a rising tide, and there's some developing community that might be later stage, if you can great, I'd say events might be the only counter I'd put to that play, because you can bring your five 610 partners together and kind of share in that that's the hack. But I think you're spot on. Just only
Blake Williams 27:04
on podcast announced from it, by the way, guys. So let's go ahead. Go ahead, Dustin.
Justin Gray 27:13
What do I have to add to that? Honestly, I don't know that I have anything additional like that vertical, I guess either verticalization or use cases that span different verticals. Everyone right now is looking for results. They're looking for hyper value, they're looking for a demonstration that not only you've got expertise in that area, but that you driven those results. And so I think, how we think about categorizing customers, what that customer's unique pain was what they were looking to accomplish, and how we delivered across that and then slicing that up with intelligent segmentation, again, makes all the sense in the world.
Jared Fuller 27:53
Right? It seems to me like anecdotally, the thing that was the hardest to figure out was whenever you had partner interest from all parties, but then you had a partner, you know, the engagement fell on its face, right? And what I mean by that is the AE screwed it up for the partner, or the partner screwed it up for the AE, that's like broke. Like, in that at bat, I no longer have that AE and I no longer have that partner. So like being able to have a higher hit rate, I think is very important this year. It's not like hey, let's bring partners and everything. It's like no, you better have your stuff lined out to you know, where like, if I'm taking this partner to marketing, we're gonna crush the execution, the brand, like we're gonna nail this to create more downstream effects. If I'm going to bring an account in with the seller, I'm bringing a good seller that's committed to maybe a verticalization or use case thing, right? It's like, Hey, I've done this before. Okay, start there. And then on the success side, like don't start with the CSM. That's one month in the job. And it's like, hey, I need a partner to help it could screw up that relationship or vice versa. Someone that's like, yeah, I've done co delivery. And I understand what it's like to work with a partner in an account. And oh, yeah, I want to replicate this again. And again, I think there is something to be said around that is a big takeaway from today's panel. I don't know any other questions from people coming in? I know we're at one minute. We're about to transition out. I learned a ton. Leave us some emoji love, shoot some stuff in the comments if you fell. So these are three of my favorite people for marketing, sales and success in the entire world. I'm so happy you guys can join us. Thank you so much for coming to the partner kickoff event that none of us had out there in the world. You got to absolutely take us home Alex
