Howdy Partners #44: Setting Up Your Affiliate Program for Success with Paddy McGill

In this episode of Howdy Partners, hosts Ben Wright and Tom Burgess sit down with special Paddy McGill to discuss setting up you affiliate program for success.

With over a decade of experience in partnerships and affiliate marketing, Paddy shares valuable insights and practical tips for creating and managing a successful affiliate program.

Here are three key takeaways from the episode:

1️⃣ Conversion rate and customer retention are essential: The success of your affiliate program depends on the conversion rate of your site and the ability to retain customers, especially for SaaS products. Ensuring a high-quality product that converts well will result in more affiliates and recommendations.

2️⃣ Consider different types of affiliates: There are various types of affiliates, such as bloggers, influencers, and PPC partners, each with their own strengths and focus areas. Understanding the differences and attracting the right types of affiliates will significantly impact the success of your program.

3️⃣ Dedicate time and resources: Setting up and running an affiliate program requires dedicated time and resources. You need a dedicated person or team to recruit and enable affiliates, reliable tracking systems, and a marketing team to create affiliate materials efficiently. If needed, resources like Partner Fuel can provide additional assistance.

Tune in to this episode of Howdy Partners to learn more about designing and managing a successful affiliate program.

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Here are some highlights:

  • About Paddy's background and partnerships. 0:03
    • Introduction to Paddy McGill and her partnerships.
    • How Paddy got started in affiliate marketing.
  • What is affiliate marketing, LinkedIn and what are affiliates? 2:32
    • Connect with Paddy on LinkedIn.
    • Definition of affiliate marketing and benefits of affiliate programs.
  • How to get affiliate marketing traffic? 5:16
    • A pure referral friend program vs affiliate marketing.
    • The suitability of products for affiliates.
    • Success depends on the conversion rate of the site.
    • Affiliate marketing is a competitive space.
  • Pillars to consider when starting an affiliate business. 9:45
    • Different aspects of an affiliate model.
    • How the influencing space plays a role.
    • The three key pillars to consider when launching an affiliate program.
    • Recruitment and recruitment.
  • Onboarding and ongoing enablement for affiliates. 12:40
    • Onboarding and ongoing enablement.
    • What to include in terms of enablement for affiliates.
    • Start with one-on-one conversations and agree a plan.
    • Focus on top performers.
  • Treating your affiliate program like a channel or solution. 17:42
    • Treating affiliate program as an acquisition side.
    • Building gates before affiliate partners come in.
    • Some affiliates might need more education on affiliate marketing.
    • Influencers and influencers vs affiliates.
  • How to get influencers on board. 22:21
    • The value of an influencer program.
    • The importance of education for influencers.
    • The first $1,500 is 0% commission for the first month.
    • The value of the traffic.
  • How to start an affiliate marketing program? 25:23
    • The first thing Paddy emphasizes is to have a high-performing affiliate program.
    • One tactical takeaway.
    • The best way to start an ambassador or affiliate program.
    • One tip for Ben.


Tom Burgess 0:03
Howdy partners, welcome back to once again another awesome episode of The howdy partners podcast, talking about tactical takeaways, tips, anyone in the partnerships profession, and hopefully just a fun, listen whether you're commuting or not. We've got another fun guest on the podcast today. Patti McGill really just set the stage for the audience. Today, we're gonna dive pretty deep into affiliate marketing. Patti's got some extensive experience. And, you know, just from talking with us, and we've we've all connected previously roles, he's a smart dude. So we're excited to kind of have him share his knowledge. But Patti, to start, kind of just tell us about your your background and partnerships, how you got into partnerships, and what makes you tick today?

Speaker 2 0:46
Yeah, absolutely. So I've been in sort of partnerships, affiliate marketing for over a decade now, I started off actually working my way back in 20 2011. So So 2012, I was at a tech startup called V interactive. It's very similar to like abandoned cart software. So you know, you put on your site, someone leaves about purchasing, and then you get an email back saying, Here's a coupon. That is where I got my first real stint into, into the partnership space. And where I land, my first sort of first compatriots is working with hotel booking software and technologies to have our code in stock code, like our code of the software hard, literally, like hard coded, typed into their software. So any hotel could use our software without having to do any sort of like, you know, any other further installs. And it was more of like a opt out rather than opt in process. So we make Commission's off all of the sales that came in and it was like wildly successful. And since then, I've been working in the affiliate marketing world certain Affiliate Marketing Network, I've ran a program over a company called Thinkific. Because I really big online course platform. And then since 2019, I've just been I've been consulting or working with other sized companies and working with influencers as well. And just generally cool people around the topic, topics of like growing their affiliate program, instances of influences how they can like monetize what they do, and also running some virtual events on a run, run to this year, we've got one, probably when the times comes out, probably just kicked off its elevate Summit. And we had to improvise something starting in January. So yeah, it's been a busy, but a busy year already, but plenty more to

Tom Burgess 2:32
Yeah, that's awesome. It's always fun to hear how people, you know, just like the different experts. So we talked about that, how they get into partnerships. And it's always just like, a different version of the kind of like the same thing, but not really like you see the Greenfield partnerships is awesome. And it takes it takes a certain human being to kind of like, put that level of acumen into play. But yeah, for everyone listening, Patti, I mean, follow patty on LinkedIn, I think you've got links to those virtual events up there.

Speaker 2 2:57
Yep, absolutely. Yeah. If you go to my my LinkedIn profile will leave the link link in the comments and stuff but on the page, but yeah, just go to my future place in comm check out all the all the stuff I've worked on all the summits. Yeah, we'd love to see that.

Tom Burgess 3:12
Yeah, highly recommend giving Patty a following. If you can attend those summits, please do. So now let's let's dig into like the the meat of the topic here. I feel like, you know, most people probably have a different view or opinion on on, you know, Josselin like, hey, what's affiliate marketing to you? Or what's, you know, an affiliate program to you, you probably get some variable of different answers, but let's hear it, let's hear it from, you know, one of the experts themselves. Tell us, you know, your, your definition of what, what affiliates are, and I guess, like the benefits that an affiliate program can provide to your overall company.

Speaker 2 3:50
Affiliate marketing is a system where you can get, let's say, a customer, or a source of traffic can refer new customers over to your brand and then exchange they get a commission for the sale going through or for depending on the program, you know, a fixed amount, though really long short, as we all do this, I think as a human, I don't stay in our day to day roles, you know, we recommend stuff we recommend products recommend services doesn't matter what it is. And in some instances, you know, you might get kickbacks you might get you know, maybe you know a little nudge or a boost on someone else's social media profile. It's all relatively the same thing your record people get recommended these products and in exchange, they get a small commission if the sale goes through,

Ben Wright 4:41
I've run programs or we've had traditional referral programs which is like Okay, your current customer, your you know, one of your friends or you know, Harley company over twice and we'll pay you 100 bucks, comparing that to what I view to be like traditional affiliate per se, which is blog post somebody that writes blog, somebody that does YouTube videos, and they're just getting like a, a link, which anybody can anybody can hit, could you kind of give us or give the listeners a bit more of a, I don't know split in your mind as to how those two operate and how they how they differ, I guess, or a partnership perspective.

Speaker 2 5:16
So like a pure referral friend program is usually done with customers that you already have. But just talking like high level of the concept of you know, something is, you know, a product is recommended, the person who recommends it, regardless of who it is, it gets compensated for that recommendation if the sale goes through. But from an affiliate marketing perspective, you're looking at all different sorts of traffic sources. So you have bloggers in and we'll touch on this later, but like influences, PPC affiliates, people that are running, you know, newsletters, deal sites, coupon sites that we've all these are all things that we've used on a daily basis. Certainly, as consumers in E commerce, for example, you know, we want to go look at that we want to go buy like a new pair of Nikes. For example, we might type you know, like Nike coupon or Nike discount into Google, you know, and generally what comes at the top is companies like RetailMeNot, and all these big coupon sites that will say, you know, hey, we've got like five sent off Timpson off, click here. And you're off to something like honey, for example, you go to checkout, says, Here's a code available. And it just goes and applies all the code. So again, another another way of lots of different ways that you can get affiliate traffic to your site. But really, it's all about like, at the end of at the end of it, it's all about your product that has been solved. And in SAS, in particular. Affiliate marketing can work. And I think it can work if you've got a product that has like, wide appeal, like niching, or niche products do work. But you've got to have like a rock solid conversion rate. And you've already got to like really get product market fit or validation that you know, people really want to buy.

Ben Wright 6:58
Yeah, I think one of the things you said there, which was really interesting was about like the suitability for products based on based on affiliate program, because I think everybody immediately thinks he should just do affiliate for our for our products. But I think to your point, like if you're just focused on, let's say, you've got a parentless for pest control companies, for example, that the number of affiliates that you have, and the number of traffic sources are minimized, right. And so I think that's a really important nuggets to take away from this podcast is like, Hey, if you're going to, if you're going to start an affiliate program, if you've got a product that applies to a wide range of people to customers, one you're going to have more traffic sources, but also affiliates can be more likely to plug it because of the track incoming traffic, right, which they can which they can pull in and push out. So I thought that was a really good nugget.

Speaker 2 7:45
I mean, ultimately, the success of a program really depends on the conversion rate of your site, and how well your conversion. And in case of SAS, like, know how long the customers stay on for, you know, if they sign up, you know, they stay on for one month, and then churn straight after. If you think about, let's say, let's just use like online course platforms, like think about teachable Kajabi. It's a very competitive space, like, we're talking like 80 Plus keyword difficulty, if you're trying to, you know, go for these, like best online course, review sites, I've no one's familiar with that. We'll we'll discuss that in just a moment. But those, those things make it really, really difficult. So if you, if you are an affiliate manager, and you're saying to these bloggers, all these people are putting like tons of effort trying to drive traffic to your site, hey, you know, a bear in mind, a lot of them are taking the risk upfront, because the time is their money. So they're taking all the risk upfront to create this content, or no generate these leads for you. If they don't convert, excuse me, they will actually go and look, go elsewhere and recommend your recommend one of your competitors. So for products has to convey has to be making money. You know, obviously, the lower the refund rate chargeback rate, the better. And then obviously, when you have, you know, a high, high quality products or product that converts, more people are going to talk about it, which in turn brings more affiliates because these types of affiliates that do like review sites, and a lot of like the familiar faces out there, when they recommend a product, they're also teaching people how to do these things like how to be an affiliate marketer how to run a digital, digital business online and make money through affiliate marketing. So when they recommend products and say that or service and says, say like this has the very best affiliate program in the market, you're gonna get more people in so it sort of like eventually sort of fuels itself, so to speak.

Tom Burgess 9:45
Yeah, you brought up a few interesting points which I've never really dug into, which is like within an affiliate model. There are certainly different aspects to it. You know, you've got you've got affiliate partners that are you know, really low touch and just trying to drive pay per click volume or just like add volume to your site. And typically, I mean, granted, I'm hoping there's some some companies out there that see a different but like, that's typically where you see that LTV of the customer long term, maybe come down a little bit, the churn rates are maybe a little higher, because you're, for better or for worse, you just you're not, unless you have a team around you to provide value or provide that enablement for those, you know, ad based affiliate partners. There's not really any anything in it for the end customer aside from like, Oh, this looks interesting. But then you brought up a couple other which is like, where kind of like the influencing space comes into play. And the more modern presence of like having, you know, a voice and having a brand, whether it's via YouTube, whether it's via podcasts like this, like that, that to me, there's differences in how you attract those affiliates, and I want to kind of dig into that year, which is like you, what are the pillars or like those kind of like Hallmark traits stampset, if you are bullish on on, whether you're just launching an affiliate program, or going back and retooling like what to you, stands as like the key milestones or pillars that someone should be considering in that place.

Speaker 2 11:14
Okay, so if we're talking about like how setting one up and getting started, then one got to have a strong conversion rate to Product Market Fit free, you've got to have someone that is there almost full time or a dedicated person to at least help recruit onboard and enable affiliates to get the most out of out of it. For you need reliable tracking, there's plenty of options on the market, depending on your budgets, if you're no brand new SAS, you can use something like first promoter, you know, if you want to do something that's a bit more, you know, if affiliate is one part of like your entire partnerships, division, you could do something like partner stack as well, or impacts, there's tons of different options out there. So reliable tracking. And then, you know, for me, it's really important that you have dedicated time and resources from either your marketing team or someone else that can help you create things, either a short note is or we on a whim, obviously, big plug for point of view here. So, you know, if you get really stuck, you can use those guys as well. But But yeah, there's, there's, there's, they're like the main things I thought I would say,

Ben Wright 12:25
let me ask you a quick question. Because I think there's, there's like three things that you called out specifically. And I think each of them can be challenging, right? Like the recruitment piece. There's a lot of nuance that goes into that. And you need to know your stuff in order to get to get that piece figured out. And you've been kind enough to kind of teach via, which is kind of the dark cause to be honest, it's not like an obvious, it's not an obvious one. Unless you're gonna sit there and Google Google search or date, right. And then and then do that, which is, which is not scalable. But I'd like to focus in on like, once you've got affiliates, let's just say you're using partner stack, you've got affiliates coming in. I think the the important piece or the interesting piece is onboarding and ongoing enablement. Maybe you can give the listeners a little bit of advice or tips and tricks on Mike, what do you need to include in terms of enablement for affiliates,

Speaker 2 13:15
so well, so first of all, because you mentioned onboarding, if do not under any circumstances, unless, like, you know, you're just, you're happy just to let this run and maybe see what happens two years later to your program, do not have like word approval on your program, it's people that would say, that's a good idea, I would say it's the probably one of the worst things you do. It's like a Pandora's box or a genie out of the bottle type of scenario, once it's out, you can't put it back in. So have an approvals process in place where you are, verifying who the know who the person is, their website, their social media following. And then when you're actually you know, and go beyond just like, looking at the links on the form, open up tabs, go and look at what they're doing, what they're talking about what they're selling, for example, depending on to wherever, you know, wherever this industry, you know, whatever industry this is, but go and actually look at what they're doing. Or really ask yourself, Does this affiliate, like, have access one to the target customer I want and to know, am I confident that they're going to be able to deliver I might confident enough knowing that they're going to be like an ambassador for my brand, because like, that is really what it is, at the end of the day, like they are an extension of your marketing team. And you certainly don't want them like writing typo ads, like typos and newsletters, like really bad imagery, you know, like what you know, whatever it is like you and as teams get bigger as like SAS companies get bigger. And departments that don't speak as speak as much you don't want one day where marketing team might recall like, Oh, hey, I just saw this affiliate, right? You know, that we that we do 60 days free, but actually we've never had a free trial. And now we've had like 500 plates come in saying, you know, like, fix it. And then for enablement, it's about, you know, once, once they're in, and you've started a conversation with them, you know, it's like, it's like, it's almost like sales, like, you've got to figure out what they want. I told him, get them to tell you what they want, and give it to them, like and then agree a plan in place of what you are going to do in order to promote us. And as you're starting out, you know, as the program is, on program small, you start out, you can have more of these sort of one on one type of, you know, type of conversation with people. But as the program gets bigger, and again, another disadvantage of like, leaving it open is that you're going to have like, 10s of 1000s of affiliates and that he will never, ever be able to talk to you and you might miss out. Once you have these one on one conversations, you can start monitoring that performance. But as the program gets bigger, you are then gonna focus more on like your top performers first. And first of all, was checking your top performers, how they're doing what they need, from you know, what their marketing plans, not just for like the quarter but throughout the entire year, like if they're working that far ahead. And most really, really good affiliate marketers that worked. So like already know, like, way ahead what they're doing for the whole year. Because even if you think about it, like if you're in a software industry that is Christmas orientated, for example, right, you know, or to Okay, actually better example, tax tax comes like, no very specific days, within the year, I've already had a couple of like, Maga certain he's already a couple of like, very big tax affiliate programs. And I'm telling you like it like the traffic is almost non existent for 11 out to 12 months, but income, the 12 months, it's boom, like they've they've done know millions and millions of dollars. So understanding how those affiliates are going to work, how they're going to promote you what their schedules and things are gonna look like is now is essential. So you've got to have these conversations, give them what they want, figure out how they're going to be able to promote and represent you the best. And again, as you get bigger, try and bring more people into your team. So you can obviously like, maybe like, step up or step away and start working with people with like, more reach more access to target customers do you want and go from there? Like that's, that's sort of my my sort of thoughts around it. And outside of that, you've just got a plan monthly, like, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, what are you doing? So you've got to have, as an affiliate manager, you've got to have these conversations with your marketing team.

Tom Burgess 17:42
I don't know why I've never thought about this. But I love the idea of treating your your affiliate program, like the acquisition side, just like you would with, you know, almost like a channel or solution like

Speaker 2 17:53
exactly the same. So he's exactly the same in that in those respects.

Tom Burgess 17:58
Yeah, like, you need to, like these are still your partners. So in thinking about that, in the lens of you, these, these partners will be a representation of, of your brand, and the integrity of your brand. So, you know, the idea of auto approving is scary. And I know that from experience, because then it's just like this mass pool of people I don't know, and I don't want to do the speed dating of like, Hey, who are you? What do you do? Like, it just sounds like a nightmare. So I totally endorse the idea of building gates before affiliates come in, because then you start to talk about the ones that, you know, the ones that I don't know, I don't want to try and separate, you know, the good, the good affiliate partners versus the ones that are just here to spam you with leads, like garbage leads. But I think what that leads to is the ones that will actually go through and have a conversation with you are the ones that are absolutely going to listen and take advantage of assets, materials and educational tips that you're going to provide them. So it just seems like a like a mutual mutually beneficial relationship.

Ben Wright 19:06
If anything I'd push back on and it's it's kind of interesting because I kind of get the comparison between recruitment of channel pot as I always go back to like the management and I'd actually say that, like, affiliates are a special breed in the way that they only care about money, to be honest with you, if you really if you already separated down like they're in they're in the game to get paid. And so I would say like the enablement training education piece is far wider than that of like a child partner. Right? Yeah, the others.

Speaker 2 19:36
I would disagree a little bit and I'll tell you why. Because there would be there are instances of people that you know that say for example, like some something like click funnels, actually prolific affiliate program, vast majority of their affiliates, you know, or the people that are signing up to be affiliates. They are also learning how to do digital marketing and what the What does Click Funnels dude at teach people how to do affiliate marketing or via their affiliates that they do. And then they obviously sell their product via their funnels and stuff. So I should, one thing I was gonna say is that the, depending on the type of affiliate, you know, some of them might need, like, actual education on how to be an affiliate marketer. So I've been working with a, like a financial services organization, and they have a very specific, like lead generation offer. And a lot of those affiliates that are promoting it, I just mum and dad saying, I'm gonna go and speak to five of my friends in the, you know, at the local cafe or in the local, like networking group downtown. And I'm gonna ask them if they've done this particular thing with their tax returns yet. And if they haven't, they get 20% of all the tax that was able to be reclaimed. So those people don't know that might need help at all. But then if they want to go online and talk about it, like you literally need to show them like, click here, click here, click here, this is how you even open up your emails and insert a link. So already depends on the type of fit. But I absolutely do agree what you are saying no, no, a lot of affiliates a lot. A lot of different types of affiliates. Really, all they care about is the money because, again, that is how primarily how they're making. That's how they that's how they run their business. I think the thing that is a little bit different from that would be and maybe like dovetail on something else is like influences as well, because some influencers or people with a large following whilst whilst Commission's are nice, what would they actually prefer? They would both be if they have x, if an influencer and your company have the same target audience, which hopefully is the case, what would they actually prefer to get their own stuff promoted in front of your audience, you set up an affiliate commission. So to give you a Thinkific example here, now we had we worked with some example, some affiliates that would want, they would say like I don't want any commission, but I just want you to promote a webinar that we're doing or we do a joint webinar together that goes to your audience. I'm going to teach them how to become like a speaker or an author in 90 days. And then on the flip side, I'm going to join their audience with a webinar perhaps and say, I'm going to show you how to turn that book now. Or how to turn that TEDx Talk into an online course.

Ben Wright 22:21
I 100% agree with that. And it's it's interesting because we're going through it the nominate sense balk where it's like, we want to start this influencer program. Actually, the commission structure that we offer affiliates is really attractive, I would say it's 30% in perpetuity, which is found in the world of in the world of SAS, however, when you're talking to influences, they don't, they don't necessarily understand what that could mean, because they're not used to like that model of like, okay, ongoing revenue commissions. And so that is what we're finding is the value to them coming on board as an influencer program, writing posts, that the product is free for use of the product because they can use it for prospects and themselves. But actually, payment upfront, as a way of testing the water to see Hey, is your audience going to be interested in at all, and then as a byproduct, after three months, I can go back and be like, Okay, I know, we paid you $1,500 Or I like 500 bucks a month, they need to just go on to the affiliate model you've been paid out, you know, and and it's in perpetuity. And so I do think there's a change of address point education in addition to things that influencers care about outside of just the traditional kind of rev share model.

Speaker 2 23:32
But it's a mine as well influences they're not just recommending the products, they are a lot of time creating content, and they are running video. And especially if you go into like the Lewis house territories, nobody's like superduper big guys all the all these people have got like teams and they're going they're flying in, they're recording videos, you know, dates, it's 10s of 1000s of dollars. So unless you have an absolute plus, unless they've been I'm sorry, I was gonna I'm gonna touch on now, like rock solid users of your product and they love it. Like since day one, you know, you are probably going to have put your hand your pocket to get them to do it. But one way that you can do this that depending on your affiliate tracking solution is that you can do an upfront payment into the affiliate tracking software. Now obviously there will be a premium on top that you will pay to that network but I think this is worth it because you can say we're going to set up a tracking link for you. We're going to pay you the $1,500 and your first $1,500 that you sign up are going to be 0% Commission now once you go past that $1,500 We're then going to set you back on to 20% Commission and then on sort of standard program and this does it proves two things It proves the value of their traffic and what they're doing and we'll see like helps them get there helps helps them obviously to get money in their pocket. And and then eventually you've got the numbers to show because then you then You can go with Ben's IRA and say, Well, look, you've just made $10,000 In MRR for yourself. But for that first month that you take, you took $1,500. Instead, you lost out on it. So after obviously brought their face in there be could say, like, boohoo, but he's, but you can say like, he's no look at this, look at the conversion rates you're getting. And that's also the thing as well, you know, a lot of influences. And a lot of people that are not familiar with affiliate marketing, that just want money up front, they need that education. And I think it's really important with going back to the very first thing I will say at the start is, you've got to have a high performing, like, your conversion rate your site's got to be great by really has to be like, I'm not saying that tempt saying anything like stupid, stupid, ridiculous, I that. But he's got it's got to be it has to be good. Like, if it's not converting, we've got a freemium product that takes like fucking ages to get them to convert, then, unless you've been upfront with the affiliates, and you're telling them that these are the typical conversion rates, you'll lose that you'll definitely lose out on people. So that's one thing we had was really good at Thinkific because they have a really strong plg sort of mindset from the very beginning. Is there free to free to trial to pay votaries? Like sexually? Hi.

Tom Burgess 26:20
Very good, Patti, I think this has been a jam packed episode, we touched on a lot of the, you know, the differentIy students between the straight affiliate marketing side, and then influencers at the end, but just kind of culminating this all together for the audience. What would you give, like if we have an audience out there that is ready to start an affiliate program or have an affiliate program, but they're like, something's missing, I need to reach list. What's that one tactical takeaway you can give them to start thinking about today?

Speaker 2 26:49
Ask yourself, have you actually got the time to sit? Outreach, manage onboard, communicate with your affiliates, like for the entire week, like answering emails, have the time to do this, the time to dedicate to it, when you've got a lot of money to pay someone, for example? Or a lot of money, big money to pay someone to do it, then say then, and you have the things in place, then I'd say just just go for it. But other than that, like if you're not sure, or if you want to like set it on autopilot? I'd say probably don't bother look at look at something else. First. Actually, I will say there's one tip, if I can, like I do want to, because I think Ben would benefit from this as well. If you're trying to figure out like a good way to start, like an ambassador program or an affiliate program FelPro refer friend program, the very best thing to do first is go to your customers. So take a list of your, in Ben's case, send spark know how many emails they're probably sending per month, each of their customers. So you probably got, you've probably got a understanding of like, then this size already, well, I could go under state, I'd get a good a good approximation of it. Take the top, like 100 customers that use the product the most. Maybe organize it by their list size. And then ask yourself these questions Do to have access to the target customer? Is my target customer? Have they promoted any other products or service in the past? And you know, would they? You know, would they be happy, though? Are they also are they really, really happy with our products? And you know, do I think they'd be a great candidate for promoting for promoting us free? Yes. Is that that, then just make the connection and just just say, Hey, I'm thinking of building. Now we know you've been using the product for a long time? No, we would love to put together like a beta launch of an ambassador program or affiliate program. But since you're such a great user of the product we want to bring you in first. So tell me a bit more about you know how we can work together and then just start a conversation from there. Maybe before you even go and invest lots of money in software and stuff. Go have those conversations first.

Tom Burgess 28:55
That's awesome advice. Thank you party for joining us. We appreciate you guys listening in and we'll catch you on another episode of howdy partners.

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